In today’s episode of the Dust Safety Science podcast, we’re doing a crossover with Donovan Karki of the Dusty Jobs Podcast and Imperial Systems Inc.. We’re also providing a comprehensive review of the 2023 International Powder Show, which occurred in Chicago from April 25th to 27th, 2023.
During the three-day event, the Dusty Jobs team conducted several interviews, which can be found on their YouTube channel and website. On the third day of the event, they invited Dr. Chris Cloney onto their podcast. This review encompassed the educational materials presented, discussions held at the NFPA 660 panel, key takeaways, and upcoming developments concerning combustible dust at the show. Hence, in this episode, we will be replaying the interview conducted for the Dusty Jobs Podcast.
Donovan Karki: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Dusty Jobs podcast. This is going to be our last installment here at the Powder Bulk & Solid Show. Chris Cloney is joining us today from Dust Safety Science. How’s it going, Chris?
Chris Cloney: Good. How’s everyone doing?
Donovan Karki: We’re doing good. This is like, this is your show. This is like your playground of dust safety. This is where everybody comes to talk about, like where, what you guys are all about, isn’t it?
Chris Cloney: Yeah. The Powder Show has been a great event for us to come to for the awareness and education of combustible dust. Obviously, the industry is here: plastics and powders and food and wood and pharma and chemicals are all creating dust. That’s why you care about it. But in a lot of cases, that’s combustible dust. And that’s what we do all day, every day.
Donovan Karki: Yeah. So tell everybody who’s not familiar with your organization what you guys are all about.
Chris Cloney: So our small team runs Dust Safety Science, Dust Safety Academy, and Dust Safety Professionals. It’s all around awareness and education for combustible dust. We have a podcast that’s been running for five years now. We’ve had you on the show before. We’ve been on Dusty Jobs.
Donovan Karki: You guys have like 250 episodes or something like that now, right?
Chris Cloney: Every week for almost five years. That’s a lot of talking – all about combustible dust. You believe there’s that much to say about it? So we do awareness, education. Somebody needs help. They send a request through. We find an expert anywhere in the world to help them out. We have member companies like yourselves that support those efforts. We do a lot of educational material, like the conference here the last couple days, doing a lot of presentations and moderating sessions, trying to bring people together to understand the challenges.
Donovan Karki: Yeah, we were talking about this before. Regulations are changing all the time. People are coming up with better and safer ways to help people go home safe at the end of the day. And you’re one of the people who do one of the best jobs tracking that. You guys just are a treasure trove of knowledge in that realm.
Chris Cloney: Yeah, I appreciate it. Every Sunday, for the past five years, we have been sending out every fire and explosion we find in our combustible dust newsletter. The Dust Safety Academy has got 1700 people in it. It’s an open forum there. People who ask questions get answers. It’s a weekly digest. So if somebody else is creating more material on combustible dust and trying to further the mission, then I don’t know who that’d be.
Donovan Karki: Yes, I attended your online seminar a few months ago, and it was fantastic. There were numerous professionals discussing a wealth of knowledge. It felt like trying to absorb an overwhelming amount of information, akin to drinking from a fire hydrant. Given your extensive experience and vast knowledge in this field, I’m curious to know, what are some things that attendees might have missed out on if they didn’t attend the show? What new insights or discoveries did we gain from the event?
Chris Cloney: There are a couple of key aspects to highlight here. Firstly, it is wonderful to be back engaging with people in person. Given the global circumstances and restrictions on travel, it has taken some time to resume hosting events over the past year. However, having the opportunity for face-to-face communication is invaluable.
The main advantage is the speed at which information can be exchanged. For instance, yesterday we received three requests through our Helpdesk and two DSP (Dust Safety Professionals) requests. These inquiries covered topics such as the combustibility of hay dust, the TNT equivalence of sugar (which, believe it or not, I have knowledge about from my previous involvement in defense research), and the location of large test sites in Europe. Within approximately 20 minutes of walking around the show, we were able to connect with individuals who possessed the necessary expertise to address these questions. This allowed us to swiftly provide support and progress the Helpdesk and Dust Safety Professional requests. When relying solely on email, the process tends to be significantly slower, as not everyone responds promptly. Thus, having the opportunity for in-person interactions at events like this is highly beneficial. I would like to express my gratitude to Informa and Powder & Bulk Solids for organizing this event, as it enables participants to obtain answers to the most challenging questions they may have within a single day. I consider this to be a significant advantage.
Donovan Karki: The turnout has been fantastic, with a substantial number of impressive individuals attending. Our booth has witnessed a continuous flow of visitors, allowing us to not only establish connections but also learn from them. It’s been a valuable experience to interact with these individuals, gaining insights into their work and exploring opportunities for mutual assistance.
Chris Cloney: Yeah. So that was number one. Yesterday, we dedicated an entire session to combustible dust, covering various aspects throughout the day. We began with discussions on standards and regulations in the morning, followed by a focus on dust hazard analysis in the midday session. In the afternoon, we delved into hazard management, specifically exploring options for explosion protection and fire protection. The intention was to take attendees on a comprehensive journey through these topics.
A significant takeaway for me was the realization of the continued importance of this knowledge. There are still individuals across the entire spectrum of combustible materials who fail to recognize the associated hazards. It is crucial to provide education in this area.
One particular interaction that resonated with me was a conversation I had with the Health & Safety Manager of a large multinational company who was relatively new to the field. She expressed feeling overwhelmed after walking around the event on Tuesday, encountering vendors presenting various systems ranging from dust collection to explosion protection and fire design. The amount of information was so overwhelming that meaningful discussions were difficult. However, she attended our education session on the following day, where all the speakers covered regulations and offered guidance on identifying, assessing, and addressing combustible dust hazards, providing options for mitigation.
Afterwards, she expressed gratitude, explaining that she now felt more confident engaging with her colleagues because she had gained a deeper understanding of the terminology used, such as “flameless vent,” “dust collection system,” or “filter receiver.” This incident emphasized the importance of education, as opposed to simply inundating individuals with product information. It is essential to provide a context and understanding of the underlying principles when recommending specific solutions, allowing people to grasp the “why” behind certain recommendations and appreciate the background knowledge.
Donovan Karki: And that’s true. For individuals new to the industry, navigating through technical terminology and understanding what components or systems are necessary can be overwhelming. It is precisely in these situations that your expertise can be invaluable. You have the ability to guide people through these complexities, providing them with a foundational understanding and assisting them in distinguishing between essential and non-essential elements for their systems.
Chris Cloney: Throughout the day, every day, we receive questions from various sources such as the Dust Safety Academy, our email correspondence, and the podcast. People often reach out to us with inquiries ranging from basic concepts to specific topics like NFPA 660, which we will address shortly. If you have a question in mind and share it with us, we can help you overcome any obstacles or uncertainties rather than leaving you in a state of confusion for months on end. Whether it’s myself or a member of our team, we are likely to provide you with the definition of combustible dust as outlined by NFPA or the relevant source. Even if the question seems elementary, it’s important to remember that if you have it, someone else has likely had the same query, and we have most likely addressed it before.
Donovan Karki: Right! And don’t get hung up on that basic question. Don’t get hung up on that. We want to help.
Chris Cloney: You can’t get safety if you don’t move forward, right? So don’t get hung up there, and get to it.
Donovan Karki: Yeah, because that’s your goal. That’s our goal. It’s just to help people have a safer work environment so they can get home safe every day. So what were you going to say about NFPA?
Chris Cloney: This morning, we conducted a panel discussion on NFPA 660, which serves as the standard for combustible dust. This standard combines various older and current NFPA standards. The current framework includes standards such as 652 (Fundamentals of Combustible Dust), 61, 44, 655, 654, and a few others, which address industry and commodity-specific guidelines for grain, wood, sulfur, metal, and other particulate matter.
These standards are distinct documents, each possessing technical content and unique layouts. Although the chapter order remains consistent across these standards, the aim of NFPA 660 has been to consolidate them into a single document, structured in a hierarchical manner that facilitates a clearer understanding of combustible dust hazards. The document emphasizes the importance of identifying, assessing, and addressing these hazards.
The panel discussion this morning provided an open forum for dialogue, with the presence of four out of the six committee chairs involved in developing NFPA 660. The purpose was to discuss the implications of NFPA 660 for the industry moving forward. Among the topics covered, three primary concerns were highlighted. Firstly, some individuals expressed apprehension that the standard would impose additional requirements on owners. However, the guiding principle behind the consolidation effort is to have no net impact on the industry. It is primarily an organizational exercise, with minor adjustments expected.
It is unlikely that the implementation of NFPA 660 would necessitate a complete overhaul of existing combustible safety management systems across various industries, be it graphite, coal, food production, or wood. The standard is intended to serve as a platform for community collaboration in developing future standards. Therefore, there is no need to worry that NFPA 660 will completely disrupt established practices.
Donovan Karki: Okay, gotcha! So 660 is more of an overall arching to understand the combustible dust standards. But then you’ll still have to go down into your specific standard to really get into the weeds of it if you need to, right?
Chris Cloney: The advantage now is that everything is consolidated into a single document, streamlining accessibility. Allow me to provide an example. The structure is recursive, with Chapters 1 to 9 covering the fundamentals found in the 652 document. On the other hand, Chapters 11 to 15 correspond to the additional standards I mentioned earlier, incorporating material-specific information beyond the fundamentals. The layout is particularly intriguing because it follows a recursive pattern. For instance, if we consider Section 4.2, which pertains to the owner and operator requirements for combustible dust (the actual section number may vary), the corresponding additional requirements for grain handling would be found in Section 11.4.2. Similarly, the additional requirements for metal would be in Section 12.4.2, while the additional requirements for other particulate matter would be in Section 15.4.2.
Donovan Karki: So not that the other ones were any, but this has a little more logical layout to it so that if you go to this and then you can go to your section underneath it.
Chris Cloney: Exactly. As I just explained, by reading those sections, you can grasp all the owner and operator requirements for combustible dust in about ten minutes. This level of efficiency is not possible with the current standard, as one would need to read each individual document. Additionally, the differences in order and conflict resolution methods would require a thorough understanding of each standard, followed by the task of formulating a hypothesis to interpret their collective implications for all types of combustible dust. This process demands a high level of expertise, which the NFPA committees possess. However, for those approaching the subject from an external standpoint, it becomes virtually impossible to achieve the same level of comprehension.
Donovan Karki: It could be overwhelming if I’m the guy at my facility who’s tasked with figuring this out. Yeah, that’d be a lot.
Chris Cloney: Or the guy that’s trying to sell equipment to support that operation. It’s confusing for everyone involved. So 660 again- it literally would take ten minutes to read those sections. Yeah, this makes sense. This is how it is across all combustible dust standards. And that’s not possible with the current standard set. So that’s really the overarching goal.
Donovan Karki: So 660: is it out or is it coming out?
Chris Cloney: It’s coming out.The initial draft was released in October of last year, and public input was sought until January of this year. Currently, the committees are in the process of voting on the received public inputs, which will lead to any necessary changes to the documents.
In October of this year, a new draft will be released, allowing another round of public comment, which is similar to public input, providing an opportunity to offer feedback on the changes made. Following this, there will be a chance to appeal at NFPA’s conference in person in 2025, after which the standard will proceed accordingly. We are currently in the midst of this process, with the draft readily accessible for viewing. To access it, simply visit nfpa.org/660, click on “Next edition,” select “First Draft,” and click on “View Report” or a similar option. You will need to create login credentials to proceed. Although this might appear as an obstacle, it is the necessary procedure. By following these steps, you can review the entire document in Terraview, including all the public input.
Each comment includes the individual’s name and their reasoning behind considering it important. Accessing the document directly will provide a clearer understanding of the current state of NFPA 660. While it is challenging to convey this verbally, having an image of the 660 document would make it easier to demonstrate the process. Nonetheless, it is relatively straightforward and much easier than most people perceive. Therefore, if you find yourself uncertain about the content of NFPA 660 for the next six months, I encourage you to read it right away.
Donovan Karki: Right. And that’s what’s great is that it’s not just some people out there who are making up whatever they want. They’re listening. It sounds like there’s a lot of steps to make sure that whatever comes out at the end is going to be the best for everybody that’s involved.
Chris Cloney: The committees are anywhere from 20 to 30 to 40 people. And I’m estimating in the last three years the average might have been 40- 50 hours. Someone I know spent up to 150 hours. So you’re talking thousands, maybe tens of thousands of hours. People are taking their time. And they’re not just the gurus, the experts. They have to have a mandatory split of consultants, insurance and users. So it tries to get every viewpoint in. But that’s the point, right? To bring different perspectives in, and then try to get a better document at the end of the day.
Donovan Karki: A better document is going to make it clearer for everybody who has to use it and clearer for everyone who’s trying to implement it. At the end of the day, what it’s going to do is make a safer environment for people who are working.
Chris Cloney: Yeah. And easier to understand, too. You can go figure out what your requirements are as per NFPA.
Donovan Karki: It gets tricky.
Chris Cloney: So that was the big takeaway from that panel. There are a lot of specific discussions. I’d say if you have a question about how it impacts you or your industry, reach out to Donovan. You can also reach out to me. That’s what we do. People ask us questions all day, every day, so we’re happy to help.
Donovan Karki: Yeah, reach out to me. I’ll ask Chris. So is there anything else that’s coming up? Anything new with you guys?
Chris Cloney: There’s always new stuff going on. 660 is a big deal if you’re a Canadian company. If you operate in British Columbia or have clients working there, it is noteworthy that they have recently proposed regulations concerning combustible dust. This development holds significance for individuals and businesses in the region. It is important to be aware of these regulatory changes, even though the public comment period may have already passed by the time you become aware of them. Additionally, there are numerous advancements occurring overseas, particularly in terms of innovative approaches such as flameless venting, suppression, isolation, and other related topics. These cutting-edge developments discussed at conferences will likely shape future standards over the next five years. They represent the latest advancements in the science of safeguarding against and preventing dust explosions.
Donovan Karki: Yeah. Learning more every day.
Chris Cloney: For our team, our primary focus is to strengthen our efforts in raising awareness, providing educational resources, and offering assistance to individuals who find themselves uncertain or in need of guidance. We are dedicated to improving our ability to promptly address questions or concerns and swiftly direct people towards the necessary support they require.
Donovan Karki: Yeah. That’s what’s great about what you guys do. You’re actively establishing a network to ensure that individuals can obtain answers within a reasonable timeframe. The aim is to prevent individuals from getting overwhelmed by searching for information on Google when there are knowledgeable experts available to provide guidance. Conferences like this offer a wonderful opportunity to personally engage with professionals who are fully immersed in the field, allowing for face-to-face conversations and the exchange of valuable insights.
Chris Cloney: If you enjoy podcasts, we have our very own show called the Dust Safety Science podcast. With over 250 episodes, we exclusively cover topics related to combustible dust. It may seem unbelievable, but it’s true. We have explored a wide range of subjects, spanning from Zimbabwe and Jordan to North Carolina and even here in Illinois. Our discussions encompass a vast array of content. So, if you’re interested, it’s definitely worth checking out.
Donovan Karki: Yeah. Well, Chris, thanks for coming on. We always enjoy having you on. You’re such a wealth of knowledge. It’s like drinking from a fire hose from you sometimes. I’m trying to keep it all in. We love having you on, and we’re just looking forward to next time we get to talk to you, because I’m sure it’ll be about exciting stuff. I hope you have a great ride home. We’re signing off here from Powder Bulk. And I just want to say thanks for listening, guys. Everyone who’s out there, share this with other people who might be trying to figure out what NFPA 660 is or what’s coming up. And until the next time we talk, stay healthy and stay safe.
Conclusion
In this episode of the Dust Safety Science podcast, we joined forces with Donovan Karki from the Dusty Jobs Podcast to provide a comprehensive review of the 2023 International Powder Show. We discussed the interviews conducted by the Dusty Jobs team, the NFPA 660 panel discussions, key takeaways, and upcoming developments in the field of combustible dust. We emphasized the importance of awareness, education, and support in creating safer work environments. Thank you for listening, and see you in the next episode!
If you would like to discuss further, leave your thoughts in the comments section below. You can also reach Donovan Karki directly:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donovan-karki-b7979a49
If you have questions about the contents of this or any other podcast episode, you can go to our ‘Questions from the Community’ page and submit a text message or video recording. We will then bring someone on to answer these questions in a future episode.
Resources mentioned
Dust Safety Science
Combustible Dust Incident Database
Dust Safety Science Podcast
Questions from the Community
Dust Safety Academy
Dust Safety Professionals
Dust Safety Share
Companies
Imperial Systems Inc.
Standards
NFPA 660
Dusty Jobs
Dusty Jobs Podcast
YouTube Channel
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